Breaking the Silence: Mental Health in Construction
⚠️ Trigger Warning: This episode discusses mental health struggles, addiction, and personal challenges. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out for support.
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In this episode of Fixings Not Included, the podcast brought to you by fischer fixings UK, we’re tackling an important topic—mental health in the construction industry. Joining us are two incredible guests, Rob Muldoon [ @themyhpodcast ] and Joe Baker [ @ScreedPapi ] who share their personal journeys through the highs and lows of their careers and mental well-being.
Rob, a seasoned construction professional with over 24 years in the trade, opens up about the struggles he faced with mental health and the stigma that still lingers in the industry. His journey from apprentice bricklayer to project manager took a turn when he hit a breaking point, leading him to become a passionate advocate for open conversations around mental well-being, including starting his own podcast “The Mind Your Head podcast”.
Joe’s story is equally inspiring, transitioning from the food industry to construction, he battled addiction and mental health issues before a life-changing moment set him on a new path. Now, he uses his platform to raise awareness and connect with others going through similar struggles.
Together, we dive into the realities of mental health in construction and the importance of resilience, community, and breaking the silence around these critical issues.
This episode is raw, real, and a must-listen for anyone in the trade or beyond. Tune in now and join the conversation.
Transcript
Welcome guys to the Fisher podcast. I'm here with Joe
Speaker:and Rob. If you guys could introduce yourself. Can
Speaker:you give me a bit of your background and then we can go from
Speaker:So I'm Rob Muldoon, I'm from the MYH podcast and
Speaker:I've worked in the construction industry now for 24 years. I
Speaker:started off as an apprentice bricklayer, worked in big commercial builds over
Speaker:the years and then a few years ago
Speaker:I went through a mental health journey, got myself better, got a bit of help and
Speaker:support and when I came back to work I thought there's got to be a
Speaker:better way of doing this. My biggest problem was I wasn't
Speaker:talking about what I was going through and what was happening in my life. So
Speaker:I thought why don't I start a podcast about mental health and construction because construction...
Speaker:we love to talk about football and other stuff but we don't like to talk about what's
Speaker:going on in our lives and that's what I did and it's now four and
Speaker:a bit years later and it's been a journey to
Speaker:So I... Like
Speaker:I say, I started off as an apprentice bricklayer, worked for a big brickwork contractor in
Speaker:Manchester, working on big commercial stuff like schools and
Speaker:prisons and loads of MOD projects, all the big high-rise
Speaker:stuff you see in the middle of city centres and things. And over
Speaker:the years I worked my way up to be a project manager for them, running
Speaker:the big projects I used to be part of, and I
Speaker:just turned myself inside out for work. and it was nothing to
Speaker:do with the company I was working for. They were great, they helped me, they supported me
Speaker:all the way when I finally opened my mouth and spoke about it. But
Speaker:because the stigma that surrounds this subject within our industry, I felt like
Speaker:I couldn't talk about this stuff. And if I do talk about it, it means I can't do
Speaker:my job and I'm not good enough. And if
Speaker:I do tell somebody that I'm struggling, they're going to think I can't do my job and then they're going
Speaker:to get rid of me and then all those thought processes of, well,
Speaker:you know what, it's easy just to keep my mouth shut and get on with it grin
Speaker:and bear it and get up, go to work, earn my money, pay my bills and go
Speaker:again. And I was miserable. And then
Speaker:I was working on a project in Liverpool. I
Speaker:was due to go away for a long weekend. Tons of holidays, I never took it
Speaker:because I thought I had to be there, I had to turn up to work, I had to keep going.
Speaker:Doesn't matter how bad I felt, doesn't matter how bad the weather was, doesn't
Speaker:matter how much stress and strain I was under, I was always alright. I
Speaker:had to keep going. But I
Speaker:should have been off on the Friday but I didn't, I went into work. Left work,
Speaker:met up with the family later on, they had already been there a day. And
Speaker:we were out on a Saturday and Seb, my eldest lad, just
Speaker:wouldn't eat his lunch. And I couldn't handle it. And
Speaker:I exploded. Just had this huge meltdown. I
Speaker:was horrible to everybody. And then after I finished making an
Speaker:idiot of myself, In a restaurant, I went back to where
Speaker:we were staying. I hid in the bedroom for the rest of that weekend. My mind
Speaker:had broken at that point. But Monday
Speaker:morning, half past four, my alarm goes off. I get myself up,
Speaker:drag myself out of bed. Anybody want to guess where I went? I went
Speaker:to work. And turned up to work, six o'clock
Speaker:in the morning. I had two Arctic loads of blocks outside this
Speaker:city centre job in Liverpool. and I
Speaker:had a forklift driver come in to help me sort this delivery out.
Speaker:I hadn't asked him to do that but he could see I
Speaker:was struggling. All the lads could see I was struggling but
Speaker:we never spoke about it and whenever anybody asked me about it, yeah I'm alright, I'm
Speaker:alright. We got this delivery sorted, sat having
Speaker:a cup of tea afterwards and they were like, how was your weekend away Rob? It was
Speaker:alright, I really enjoyed it. And
Speaker:that Monday morning was like the hardest Monday morning of my life. I obviously
Speaker:got that delivery sorted and I got everything else
Speaker:done that I needed to do that morning, all my reports and everything else. And
Speaker:once I knew the lads were safe and they were earning money, nobody needed them
Speaker:from me, I went out into the car park and I
Speaker:had a pick-up at the time. I dropped the tailgate on that pick-up and I crawled in
Speaker:the tub at the pick-up and I just broke down. I couldn't
Speaker:keep going. Now I had a really, really good relationship with
Speaker:Paul, my boss. He was wicked. Loved working for him. And
Speaker:that morning I kept ringing him and hanging up and ringing him and hanging up. Because I knew
Speaker:I needed to ask for help and I knew I needed to speak about it but I didn't
Speaker:know how. Because I felt stupid, I felt embarrassed, I felt ashamed. I
Speaker:felt like I'd let him down, I felt like I'd let myself down. And
Speaker:I thought that if I ask for this help I'm going to
Speaker:lose my job. which absolutely wasn't like that. Because
Speaker:I thought if I lose my job it means how do I provide for the family and
Speaker:how do I keep the roof over their heads and how do I keep the kids in school shoes
Speaker:and everything along those lines. And when
Speaker:I finally got to the car park I was ringing him and he actually answered at
Speaker:this time Throughout the morning I was just ringing and going,
Speaker:no, no, no, I can't, I can't, I can't. I'd hang up. But when I
Speaker:got to the car park he actually answered it and he's like, Rob, what do you want? He said
Speaker:it a bit different to that. I was
Speaker:like, Paul, I need you. He's like, right, what do you need? I was like, something's gone
Speaker:on. He's like, can you come and see us? So he did, he drove over.
Speaker:It took a bit of persuading because he's a busy man, he's running a
Speaker:big company. And we
Speaker:were speaking to us and he's like, what's up? And I just told him everything. Like
Speaker:Paul, I've messed it up. This has happened and
Speaker:that's happened and I've let you down, I've let the lads down and everything
Speaker:that's gone on at home and what had happened over the weekend. I
Speaker:got to this point and I just let everything go at
Speaker:that point and he turned round to
Speaker:me and his very first words to me were, forget work,
Speaker:who needs work, let me get you some help and that's exactly what he
Speaker:did for me. So I had a bit of time off, did
Speaker:a bit of talking therapies, spoke about this stuff and then
Speaker:If you don't mind me asking, how did it feel, like, finally
Speaker:Massively scary, because I felt like... Did it feel like a weight came
Speaker:Not at first, no, because at first it felt like, it
Speaker:was, I guess sort of dread, like, what is this going
Speaker:to entail? Where does this lead me now? Does
Speaker:this mean I am going to lose my job? like worker being
Speaker:good with me but ultimately is this going to affect my future and
Speaker:then all the worry about the bills and everything like that. And then when I did
Speaker:start realising and understanding that you
Speaker:know what this is a good thing and it does, I did start to see the
Speaker:benefit and I did start to get better and
Speaker:that's when it started to like the weight started to lift. So
Speaker:it wasn't like an instantaneous thing where the weight was lifted straight
Speaker:away or certainly not for me anyway. It
Speaker:took a bit to get used to it and then when I did get used to
Speaker:it and everything was continuing and I did go back
Speaker:to work and I did continue to do my job and I was paying the bills but
Speaker:I was doing it in a better way and I was in a better place. It
Speaker:made a big difference to me and that's when it was like, you know what, I'm so
Speaker:And then was that the point where you were like, right, I can now help others?
Speaker:Yeah, I went back to work and I carried on and I did
Speaker:have another meeting with Paul. I'd gone back to the
Speaker:office to pick something up and he was coming out of the office because we worked, it
Speaker:was such a big company that you might not see people for
Speaker:ages, like there might be lads that I work with, they go off
Speaker:on a different site and I might not see them for three years. Not that they've left the business, we're
Speaker:just not on the same site. And I'd
Speaker:gone back to the yard to pick some scaffolding fixings up and Paul
Speaker:was coming out of the office, he was going off somewhere to do a meeting. And
Speaker:he said to me, right Rob, what do you want to do? Do you want to carry on with your job? Do
Speaker:you want to drop back on the tools? Do you want to drive one of the machines for
Speaker:us? What do you want to do? You can do anything you want. And at
Speaker:this point I was doing my MBQ level 6 and
Speaker:I was like, I'll be honest with you Paul, I hate my job. I
Speaker:said, I'm either arguing with you, arguing with the site teams or arguing with
Speaker:the lads on site and it's a merry-go-round of poo that
Speaker:I don't want to be on. And he was like, well,
Speaker:I tell you what, when you finish your MVQ, go
Speaker:off, do your knee bosh and become a health and safety manager for us.
Speaker:And I stood there and I thought about it for a minute and I was like, all
Speaker:right, if you want me to, I need to let me have it. He's like,
Speaker:it's not if I want it, it's what you want to do. I'm bending over
Speaker:backwards to try it out when you're still not helping yourself. And
Speaker:again he wasn't as nice
Speaker:as that. I think that's the terminology you need to speak to
Speaker:about it. But I was like, well
Speaker:can I do a bit more on the mental health side of things? I said because the lads
Speaker:are coming to me anyway and chatting to me about what's going on in their lives and I didn't
Speaker:realise I was giving them the support that I needed or that
Speaker:I should have done for myself. I said, the
Speaker:lads resonate to me anyway and we do that. And he's like, yeah, absolutely. Let's,
Speaker:let's look for a role with you within our business to do that. And that
Speaker:was, that was, like I say, four or five years ago, I did a talk on
Speaker:Manchester Town Hall. where the
Speaker:work was being, they had a project on there, it's still ongoing now. And Paul
Speaker:was in the audience and he said to me, after I finished, he's like, you ain't going to
Speaker:be working for me in 18 months, are you? And I was like, I don't know. And
Speaker:within like six months I'd gone. Not that we'd fallen out
Speaker:in any way, but he just, he could see my career was going down a different path. And
Speaker:I'm very, very, very proud of everything that I've achieved, leaving school
Speaker:with no qualifications, so to speak of. getting an
Speaker:apprenticeship and ended up working on some amazing projects
Speaker:over the years. And yes I didn't look after myself properly but I
Speaker:can be very proud of everything I've achieved but nothing gives me job satisfaction like the
Speaker:work that I do today. Going out and helping supporting people and
Speaker:supporting this industry and helping people get that help and support that they
Speaker:need and realise they're okay to ask for it. They're not alone and they're not the
Speaker:The podcast purely came about because it was chucking it down one day Again
Speaker:I was working in Liverpool, I've worked a lot in Liverpool and all the lads
Speaker:had gone because they couldn't lay bricks, it was chucking it down. So
Speaker:I was catching up with a bit of paperwork and I was
Speaker:sat there just doing my weekly returns and I thought this
Speaker:has got to change, there's got to be a different way of doing this, there's got to be a better way of doing it.
Speaker:Like you see posters everywhere around the site and posters absolutely need
Speaker:to be there. They do play a part in raising awareness but especially
Speaker:at like my lowest point I could have been working on a site where there might have been
Speaker:three, four, five hundred people in that canteen at any one time and I'm
Speaker:stood there looking at a poster to do with mental health and getting support and
Speaker:I thought there might have been four, five hundred pairs of eyes looking at
Speaker:me, looking at that. and they might be
Speaker:sat there thinking, what's Rob looking at that poster about mental health?
Speaker:He's the one who's meant to be looking after me. He's meant to be making sure I'm safe every day out
Speaker:on site. He's meant to be the one that's sure I can earn enough money to pay my mortgage and
Speaker:everything like that. And he can't even look after himself. So I
Speaker:thought there's got to be a better way of doing this. And my
Speaker:biggest problem was, like I said before, I wasn't talking. I wasn't opening this. how
Speaker:I was feeling. I didn't know how to articulate how I was feeling and what was going on.
Speaker:I used to turn all those feelings into anger because anger was an
Speaker:emotion I could understand. And so if
Speaker:I had a feeling in Simon that I didn't understand, I'd turn it into
Speaker:anger. And I thought, well, if
Speaker:I start a podcast because that's all about talking and then people
Speaker:can come on and realize that they're not alone. They're not the only one having
Speaker:these thoughts and feelings. And they could be sat in that canteen with
Speaker:three, four, five hundred people in that canteen. Nobody else
Speaker:in that room knows what they're listening to in their earphones. And they're listening to
Speaker:somebody else who they could have worked with or who does a similar job
Speaker:to them or may not be the same trade as them, but they work within the industry.
Speaker:And they've been through a journey and they've come out the other side and it gives them hope
Speaker:I suppose it's then they'll question if they're looking at a
Speaker:poster, whereas in their own time they can just, you
Speaker:Yeah, reference back to it anytime they want. I
Speaker:get people messaging me saying, you said this at 27 minutes and
Speaker:33 seconds. I'm like, did I? I don't
Speaker:know but like it'll really really resonate with them and
Speaker:they can go back and people say to me I use it when I need the pickup or
Speaker:I need to realize I'm doing okay I'll go back and listen to certain episodes.
Speaker:I think it's raising awareness isn't it without other people being aware
Speaker:if you don't want other people knowing you can sit there with your headphones in
Speaker:and listen to that and you're not staring at a poster all of a sudden people
Speaker:Yeah, it's like when I went back and did my job again, I carried
Speaker:on being a project manager because I needed to pay the
Speaker:bills still. And I went off and
Speaker:did again through the Lighthouse, they did a scheme
Speaker:called Building Mental Health and Paul applied for me to do a lot of training through
Speaker:that which all got funded, it was a grant through the CITB. And
Speaker:I did my Mental Health First Aid course. But when I finished it and I went back
Speaker:to work and I went back on site, I never wore a lanyard with Mental
Speaker:Health First Aid on, I never had a sticker on my helmet, I never had anything
Speaker:on my PPE. Because again, as
Speaker:much as they need to be there, they can be a barrier for people to come up to
Speaker:talk to me. So if I'm stood there just in my normal
Speaker:PPE that I used to wear and I've got my
Speaker:iPad or whatever or a drawing in my hand, people could come
Speaker:over to me and chat to me and they people around them could all think yeah it's just
Speaker:chatting to me about a drawing they don't know that but when really I
Speaker:could be helping them supporting them and because people
Speaker:got to know what I did and what it was all about and especially early days
Speaker:of the podcast when I was still on site and things like that. Other contractors
Speaker:had come up to me like other like lads that are working on site and they come up
Speaker:to me and start chatting to me and I'd end up helping and supporting a
Speaker:lot of people that not necessarily work for the contractor that
Speaker:I work for but other subcontractors on site. And
Speaker:then I did get the odd lad who I work with and they come up to me and go, I've got this
Speaker:mate. And then
Speaker:I catch up with him a couple of weeks ago, how's your mate doing? And they're like, oh
Speaker:Brilliant. But it's just grown arms and legs now and I'm
Speaker:no longer working on site like that, so to speak, even though I
Speaker:am on site a lot, but I'm out delivering talks now and encouraging people to reach out
Speaker:Amazing. Sorry Joe,
Speaker:thought you were there. Don't worry, most people do to be honest. Can
Speaker:you obviously give a bit about your background and obviously your
Speaker:Yeah, so I am Joe, aka Screed Pappy as
Speaker:people like to call me now on my socials. And
Speaker:I've only been in construction for three years, believe it or not. Yeah, so
Speaker:before I was in construction I was in the food industry. And very
Speaker:similar to you, I struggled with my
Speaker:mental health. I was deep into addiction.
Speaker:So I was really struggling with alcohol. And
Speaker:I guess my mental health kind of didn't understand that at the time. And
Speaker:I just made a change basically. I was in sales so I sort of started
Speaker:off as a chef, worked my way up around my own business for sort of like six years.
Speaker:And then wanted to get a mortgage, obviously self-employed, didn't want to touch another barge pole.
Speaker:So we got a mortgage. And then obviously with that
Speaker:comes a lot of stress and pressure as everybody knows. to
Speaker:change my job role into a sales team,
Speaker:part of a sales team for a small independent food service company and
Speaker:then after working for them for six years I
Speaker:got headhunted to go and work for a big multinational company. I
Speaker:went to go and work for them for two years but Obviously then the dreaded
Speaker:COVID came along and really altered
Speaker:the logistics of how things were working really. I was working a lot from
Speaker:home, there was a lot of people on furlough, so the workload whilst
Speaker:it decreased because of the numbers that we were supplying, the workload
Speaker:increased because the team on the ground were a lot fewer
Speaker:really. And like everybody
Speaker:I think in COVID we all took it as a bit of a holiday and let's crack a beer at
Speaker:10 o'clock in the morning and treat it like that. I
Speaker:got into a very slippery slope. I think at my darkest time
Speaker:I was doing about a bottle of spiced rum a day. But
Speaker:didn't have a problem, obviously. I was fine, I'm not an addict, I
Speaker:can control it. And then, yeah,
Speaker:basically attempted suicide. I would
Speaker:say, when I say attempted suicide, I went to
Speaker:the side of the motorway near where I
Speaker:live and sort of sat on the fence pondering, you
Speaker:know, what if, what's going to happen if I do this? Is everyone's life going to be better or
Speaker:is it going to be worse? And all that kind of stuff. fortunately for
Speaker:me and others around me that I managed to pull myself back with a
Speaker:good support network and obviously the thoughts that were having in my mind at
Speaker:the time and then yeah
Speaker:just decided to make a change really. I went down to Boardmasters
Speaker:in, well it would have been August, three
Speaker:years ago and met the most incredible human
Speaker:being I've ever met in my life. You might know him actually, Ian
Speaker:from We Are Hummingbird. So he's a mental health
Speaker:first aid trainer and he delivers courses
Speaker:to all sorts of walks of life really. Does a bit with the Royal Navy, Portsmouth
Speaker:football team I believe. So he's down in Portsmouth himself. and
Speaker:I just went to go and volunteer basically to try and help out others whilst I
Speaker:was still struggling myself and I was still in addiction. And
Speaker:he was just like a guardian angel is the best way I can explain
Speaker:him basically. And he changed my life of what he was saying to me. And
Speaker:Yeah. Literally from what he was talking to me about I just like my
Speaker:life needs to change. I was selfish, I was angry, very
Speaker:much like you. That's the best way I could express how I was feeling. And
Speaker:now I look back and think, It was a very selfish
Speaker:way of dealing with what I was going through really, but you don't, I don't
Speaker:know about you, but you don't tend to think about other people
Speaker:when you're in that mindset, if that makes sense, until you start
Speaker:taking a step back and then you realise that actually the other people around you
Speaker:supporting you are the people that are trying to help. and make
Speaker:you understand what's going on really so yeah but he pulled
Speaker:me back and like I say completely clean now and my
Speaker:life has just turned tenfold so it's really really
Speaker:good for me now and I love construction I love what I do so it's happy
Speaker:Yeah kind of so I never really had a
Speaker:goal per se of becoming a content creator or influencer
Speaker:and I do kind of hate those words really. It's
Speaker:very cliche isn't it let's be honest and influencers I think I find
Speaker:it very cringe as most people do. I like creating
Speaker:content and I like people to engage with what
Speaker:I'm doing really. There's not many people that create content
Speaker:in in the part of the industry that I'm in. And
Speaker:whilst I try and create content with my work, I'm also trying
Speaker:to raise awareness of mental health at the same time. So I do
Speaker:like to keep my page as my page and keep it professional. But
Speaker:I do believe that, you know, like you, I think unless people understand that
Speaker:in this industry, you know, the statistics are scary when
Speaker:you really start looking into it and understanding it. So if
Speaker:I can raise awareness and three people in a week can come to me and
Speaker:say, you know, I've never really thought about talking about that or,
Speaker:you know, I'm a million miles away from you in regards to
Speaker:what you're doing. But, you know, the way I look at it is if I can make one
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, my reach is different, you know, it's not... I
Speaker:suppose it's not my job to do that, but I think if I'd
Speaker:have had somebody, I guess, like me, whilst
Speaker:I was going through my struggles, that I could relate to,
Speaker:then, you know, potentially it could have saved me that
Speaker:little bit earlier than when I was saved. But I am a massive believer
Speaker:in everything happens for a reason and what's meant to be won't pass you by.
Speaker:I mean with both of like your stories obviously you
Speaker:were just saying about that you're doing it your way and you're
Speaker:doing it yours. With what
Speaker:area like specifically do you aim with mental health?
Speaker:Is it sort of like obviously I know that the goal is the same but
Speaker:I think the way I do it, I can be quite firm with people. Because
Speaker:when I was doing a lot of my training, I was in a room and I was, one,
Speaker:I was the only man in there and two, I was the only construction worker
Speaker:that was in there and everybody's like, oh, let's
Speaker:sort this out. And I'm like, I ain't
Speaker:gonna work on site. So say like when
Speaker:I'm on site doing one of the talks, In
Speaker:fact, I was in a head office for a
Speaker:massive house builder two weeks ago, not far from
Speaker:here. And I said to him, look, this ain't
Speaker:going to be a corporate talk. There's going to be swearing in it and there's going to be real
Speaker:life events and everything like that. And is everybody all right? And
Speaker:they're all like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I started, I
Speaker:didn't realise it was like that. It's
Speaker:just real life. It's relatable. It's
Speaker:real life. Yes, you do need
Speaker:to look after yourself. And yes, you do need to have
Speaker:that grit and determination to work in this industry. There is no doubt
Speaker:about it. You've got to have resilience. And I think that's a big thing that
Speaker:I try and teach people is resilience, because I've had people, whether
Speaker:it's doing the work that I'm doing now, or whether I'm out on
Speaker:site doing the talks and things, people have said to me, oh, you're turning
Speaker:everyone into a snowflake. I'm like, I'm absolutely not. I'm
Speaker:trying to teach people to understand that there is help and support out
Speaker:there. You can ask for that help and support. It doesn't make you any weaker. It
Speaker:doesn't make you any less of a tradesperson. It doesn't make you any less of a
Speaker:human being. You're not a robot and you all need help and support. And
Speaker:I'll try and make it a bit relevant to them with whatever trade they do. And
Speaker:if I'm honest with you I like it when I get crowds that are like that because I'll
Speaker:give it back just as much as they do it. I can
Speaker:give you tons and tons of examples where I've had to go in on people but
Speaker:I do it in a way which is the language that we speak out on
Speaker:site. I think more than anything I just try and make it as
Speaker:relatable as real life as possible and let them
Speaker:I think that's important though, because I think from your point of view, you're trying
Speaker:to get a message across to a certain audience. Let's
Speaker:face it, most people that are in construction aren't classroom people, are
Speaker:they? We don't want to sit down and listen to a theory lesson on
Speaker:how to look after your mental health. I think you need to be relatable and I
Speaker:And it's done in a way, I hope it's
Speaker:done in a way that people can see that and they can. reach
Speaker:out and ask for that help and support. And they may never let me
Speaker:know or anybody know that he's come through something I've done or something you've done
Speaker:or anybody's done, as long as it impacts them. And me
Speaker:and Joe could stand and deliver the same talk, for instance, but
Speaker:you could say it your way and I could say it my way. There's
Speaker:not one way to make this message land with people. you
Speaker:had coffee this morning, I'll have a tea this morning. Everybody's different. Everybody
Speaker:has different wants and needs. And that's why it's got
Speaker:And then how do you feel with your platform? Like,
Speaker:Mine's kind of obviously because it's not my main push
Speaker:on my platform. I think for me, it's more, again, it's
Speaker:real life. It's obviously showing people what we do on a day to day basis. I'm
Speaker:more, I guess, showing people
Speaker:it's OK not to be OK kind of thing. You know, everybody
Speaker:says to me, oh, you know what, your stories of a morning we wake up and it's
Speaker:so positive and it gives us a really good kickstart to the day. But
Speaker:I'm also real and I say like, you know what, this has gone wrong today
Speaker:and this had this effect on me or, you know, that kind of thing. And I think my
Speaker:platform's more, it's more of what I do on
Speaker:a daily basis, but also like obviously with Mental
Speaker:Health Month, Men's Mental Health Month this month, I'm trying to drop drip
Speaker:feeding. you know, the odd reel here and there of like, you
Speaker:know, support networks or, you know, things, motivational
Speaker:speeches or that kind of thing, really. So I guess it's just like
Speaker:you said, it's, it's, it's different, we target it differently. And it's because
Speaker:it's not my main driving factor. I guess
Speaker:it's a little bit more subtle on my page than it would be on someone who's, you
Speaker:I'll get people messaging me saying, oh, can you speak to this individual? He's
Speaker:in our group chat or they're in our group chat and they're being a bit distant
Speaker:and they're not the same. And I'll never message him going, oh, everybody from
Speaker:the group chat said you're being really distant and everything like that. I
Speaker:did one a couple of weeks ago and I just started talking about something that they'd put in
Speaker:the reel and it grew and grew. And then I was not, I
Speaker:never mentioned mental health once to them, but they ended up talking to me
Speaker:about how they felt. a certain way at that time and how
Speaker:I'd drawn it out of them and how it was affecting
Speaker:them and then spoke about them with them about another
Speaker:two or three messages, checked in on them a couple of times and now they're like...
Speaker:and I've noticed the difference in the way that they are with the social media
Speaker:stuff, they're posting more stuff and they're back to being energetic. And
Speaker:as well I think the important thing is people need to remember that when
Speaker:you go through a mental health journey, it's not like linear. This
Speaker:is how it's going to be. This is, you're going to sort all this, you're going to get this support
Speaker:and everything's going to be okay. It's not like when you break your leg, you
Speaker:break your leg, you have it in plaster for what, eight weeks, have a
Speaker:bit of physio afterwards. And although that leg
Speaker:might be sore in the wintertime and it gets cold and stuff, you're pretty much back to
Speaker:where you were. With mental health, it's an ongoing journey. I
Speaker:still get it now. There's been times where I wake up and
Speaker:I'm riddled with anxiety and I don't
Speaker:understand why and I could wake up and I'm just in a bad mood or I
Speaker:could be driving the van or doing a job and I'll just burst
Speaker:into tears and I'm like, why am I feeling like this? I don't understand it.
Speaker:What I tend to do when I feel like that is I'll de-engineer it a bit. Right,
Speaker:I'm feeling rubbish today, when was the last time I felt good and what's changed
Speaker:between now and then. It might be something as simple as the weather changing, clocks
Speaker:going back, Christmas is coming up, tax bills are
Speaker:coming in, something's happened, somebody
Speaker:said something to you and it didn't quite sit with you right and
Speaker:you're holding it inside you. All the different
Speaker:things like going in life. But it's important to realize you recognize
Speaker:those things and then find out what your coping strategies are,
Speaker:whether that be boxing, whether it be running, whether it be art, whether it
Speaker:be talking groups, whether it be whatever you need to do as an
Speaker:individual that works for you. Recognizing that and
Speaker:leaning into those support networks that you built
Speaker:for yourself. And not always as well, those support
Speaker:networks will work for you. You could get to a certain point with it and think, Right,
Speaker:well this was working for me but now it's not. What do I need to change about
Speaker:it? And you might need to change it up quite often. It's not one
Speaker:way of doing it. It is the perfect way of doing it. There's loads of different ways
Speaker:Well, just going back a little bit where you were saying that,
Speaker:you know, obviously you both have gone through a mental journey and it's, you
Speaker:know, continuing. You both have like constantly
Speaker:in the public eye, say, and you were saying
Speaker:that it's great that you have a responsive way,
Speaker:you know, you've got like good energy, you do a story and
Speaker:then that takes someone out of their bed and they're also in a
Speaker:good mood. How do you, is that pressure
Speaker:for both of you? Like how do you handle your mental health,
Speaker:I think it's a difficult one, a difficult question that to be honest with you. But I
Speaker:think from my point of view, again, like I said, I'm just real. And
Speaker:I think just sort of touching on what you were saying there about,
Speaker:you know, you can have a day where you feel riddled with anxiety
Speaker:or, you know, not necessarily the best, you don't feel the best. I
Speaker:have this little thing that Ian from Wyoming Bird taught me about the mental
Speaker:health bank balance, I don't know if you've heard me talk about this before, where
Speaker:you cash in and cash out throughout the day. So if something good
Speaker:happens, so for instance this morning, and it makes me smile just thinking about
Speaker:it, I've got a little 7-year-old boy who was fast asleep
Speaker:in my bed, rolled over, put his arm around me, put his leg
Speaker:around me and gave me a little cutch, a little spoon. and
Speaker:it just brings me joy. So for me, the first instance of
Speaker:that day, the first thing that I'm waking up to is giving me joy, that's a cash-in for
Speaker:me. It might be then that I get to a job and something
Speaker:goes wrong on the job and that's a cash-out. But I think as long as you end
Speaker:your day on a positive mental health bank balance, for me
Speaker:that's what I do every day now. You know, like you said about de-engineering it and
Speaker:dealing with it your way. And again we get back to everybody has
Speaker:their way of dealing with things. For me, I don't feel
Speaker:pressure. from trying to perform as
Speaker:such on social media. I like to keep it real.
Speaker:And yeah, I think that's the best way to describe it
Speaker:for me really. I don't, you know, obviously there's going to be people that have positive
Speaker:things to say and negative things to say, but that's the journey of mental health.
Speaker:I think a lot of the time people get caught up in mental
Speaker:health And I've just literally just commented on someone's Facebook post
Speaker:that I follow who's an avid supporter of
Speaker:mental health. People associate mental health
Speaker:as being negative. And it's not the case. Like mental
Speaker:health can be giving your mate a high five. It can be smiling
Speaker:and laughing. That's positive mental health. I think everybody nowadays, as
Speaker:soon as someone says mental health, it's automatically assumed that you're
Speaker:depressed, you've got anxiety, you know, it's the negative mental health
Speaker:or poor mental health. And it needs to be educated by
Speaker:you kind of guys that can really sort of stress that to people
Speaker:Absolutely. I think I can feel the pressure sometimes that people will look to me for the
Speaker:answers. And I haven't got all the answers, nobody's got all the answers.
Speaker:There's people that are far more intelligent than me, that have been doing it a lot longer than
Speaker:me, that are trying to understand and help and support not only this industry but
Speaker:the human race with the suicide rates and things like that. People are
Speaker:still struggling to come up with the answers of what to do and how to cure it. And
Speaker:I don't, if I'm brutally honest, I don't think we ever will get to that point but we can
Speaker:help drastically reduce those numbers. But I have to just
Speaker:say to myself, look, just keep being you. Just keep being you. You
Speaker:don't have to find the answers to people. And as well, if people are
Speaker:messaging you or you might end up getting
Speaker:messages coming in because people are seeing the good work that you're doing.
Speaker:Remember, you don't have to give everybody the answer. You don't have to give them
Speaker:the support. You don't have to give them solutions to what's going on
Speaker:in their life. as long as you can be there, be a non-judgmental listening
Speaker:ear for them and just support them in the sense of saying, you
Speaker:know, it sounds like you've got a lot going on there and let me get you some
Speaker:help and support and then signpost them to the people that can help and
Speaker:support them and just do that
Speaker:way of doing it and just realise that you
Speaker:Do you, with like the Sorry,
Speaker:I'm just trying to put it in the right way. Hang on. You
Speaker:must get like. Bad,
Speaker:it's not bad feedback, but you must get like get
Speaker:quite Like critic, I don't
Speaker:know what the word is. Yeah, critique. Like you must, I mean, as
Speaker:you say, like with the,
Speaker:Yeah, he must get arseholes. I mean obviously
Speaker:I know you guys have gone through a lot and you do try your best but
Speaker:you're gonna have an arsehole aren't you? How
Speaker:I can give you a great example. Go, go, go, go, go. So
Speaker:I was with Matt at D5, I went laying bricks with him for the day. Down
Speaker:in Birmingham. Is he as good as he says he is? Yeah, he's a good lad, man. He
Speaker:was like, I'll tell you what, let's film a video
Speaker:of you laying bricks. I was like, alright. Because I don't really put much bricklaying stuff on
Speaker:there. I'll be brutally honest with you, if I never laid a brick again
Speaker:in my life, I'd be pretty happy. I've done it for 20 odd years.
Speaker:I've had my belly full of it. We were
Speaker:out on site one day, we were doing it, and we filmed this video. And I
Speaker:put it out, and it did quite well. Matt obviously knows what he's doing on
Speaker:that front, and it worked. And I
Speaker:had this guy in the comments saying to me, along
Speaker:the lines of, oh, you're not a bricklayer, this, that, and the other. And I was like, oh, sorry,
Speaker:my 22 years of experience is not good enough. I was going back with dry sarcasm to
Speaker:them. Anyway, back and forth, back and forth. And it got to about 15 minutes
Speaker:later, I'm like, right, I'm sick of you now, I'm bored of you. And he was going
Speaker:in on stuff. And then the next day, that was on
Speaker:Facebook, and then the next day he messaged me on Instagram and
Speaker:went, hi mate, it's me from, I gave you these comments, I've
Speaker:just seen what your page is all about and I'm really sorry. I ended
Speaker:up getting him support. He ended up going through
Speaker:a journey of getting support and he messaged me
Speaker:back saying, I'm so appreciative of that and I'm really grateful. And
Speaker:a lot of it, I think the point of that one is that it's deflection. Because
Speaker:people don't know how to handle those situations. And we could say stuff and
Speaker:do stuff and like whenever I give the talks at the beginning of
Speaker:the talks, I give a trigger warning, say, look, I am going to talk about my
Speaker:journey and your journey might not look like mine, but it may remind
Speaker:you of certain points. And if you need any help, like a thumbs
Speaker:up and thumbs down thing. So sometimes you might need to step out
Speaker:for a minute. If you're all right, you just need a bit gives a thumbs up. But
Speaker:if you want to step out and you don't want to make a scene, give us a thumbs down, either myself or
Speaker:one of the other team members will come out and have a quick chat with you and make sure that you're
Speaker:all good. Because a lot of the time for these people, it's
Speaker:the first time they've ever heard or thought about this stuff. and
Speaker:they don't know how to handle it and it could turn into anger
Speaker:because they can understand anger and that could turn into dickhead comments,
Speaker:that could turn into stupid comments and they don't
Speaker:know how to deal with it a lot of the time and I'll always deal
Speaker:with it, I'll come back. I mean you get a vibe off them though, you know, you
Speaker:get a vibe off them. And if I know, like I was giving an example about
Speaker:a guy who's just for whatever reason, every time
Speaker:I put a video out, he's got 40 plus accounts, all
Speaker:faceless, all names, well they've got names on them. Followboy1234. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah. And they'll just dislike everything I
Speaker:do. I'm like, keep going, just keep going because
Speaker:that individual may come to me at some point and need that help and support. And
Speaker:there's been people that I've helped and supported over the years and
Speaker:then they've ghosted me, so to speak, and I'm okay with that because
Speaker:I've done my bit. They've got that support, or they've gone off
Speaker:and started the journey. Whether they've continued that journey, I don't know, because I
Speaker:never know. But I know that I've done everything I can for
Speaker:that individual, and if they choose to take that help and
Speaker:It sounds like they may hate you for it but you've done
Speaker:I'll stand and I'll take as much abuse off people that
Speaker:they want to give me because there'll be people, especially
Speaker:when I'm doing face-to-face stuff, there'll be people in that audience that need
Speaker:to hear what's going on, need to hear what Joe says, need to hear what other
Speaker:people are saying because they might think that they're absolutely
Speaker:alone in this journey and they're the only one feeling like this and they don't
Speaker:know what to do, how to handle it, how to understand it, how to ask for the
Speaker:help, what to do without support, how to move forward in their life. And
Speaker:if somebody's there distracting and being abusive and
Speaker:Do you find it a lot on your talks that it's like this?
Speaker:It's getting less, but the severity of
Speaker:the heckling gets harder. And I'm used
Speaker:to dealing with big teams of bricklayers. I did,
Speaker:I mean, if we've got time, I can give you another example
Speaker:about a talk that I did in London. So I turned up to this site in London with
Speaker:I'll show you. Turned up to this
Speaker:site, central London, and turned up the hoarding was a
Speaker:mess. So straight away I was like, hmm, what's going on here?
Speaker:All the monoflex around the scaffolding was flapping in the wind and I
Speaker:was like, this site's a mess. And the site contact
Speaker:came out to me and I said, am I all right parking here? Is this the right spot? Because
Speaker:I had to park in a certain position to do the parking because of being
Speaker:on Fleet Street in London. And they're like, yeah, you've
Speaker:got the right place. But I'm really sorry about the team
Speaker:we've got on site. They're all scaffolders and ground workers. And I was like, right. And
Speaker:they're like, yeah, they're rowdy. I was like, that's all right. And
Speaker:I got there. I walked in and the whole
Speaker:site was a mess. Like there was more dirt and I know it's a building site
Speaker:but you know when you go on a clean site and a well looked
Speaker:after site, this was not one. Walked in this
Speaker:canteen and it was like a
Speaker:rat run with all the mud on the floor where people have been walking. It's just building
Speaker:up and I'm thinking people are meant to be sat eating their lunch in here and
Speaker:things like that and they need a clean space away from the work area. And
Speaker:they got all these people in there and they were being really resistant and I was handing these
Speaker:cards out like I always give cards out at the beginning of every talk because
Speaker:not everybody, they get goody bags offers but not everybody wants to take those goody
Speaker:bags but as long as they've got the card with the contact details on and everything like
Speaker:that. And within the first
Speaker:two minutes I had triggered everyone in that room and
Speaker:they were going at me and I mean going at
Speaker:Well I can tell it like, so I speak about how I struggled with my kids and
Speaker:how I continue to struggle with kids and fatherhood hasn't come easy to me
Speaker:and how I speak about that and they were like you're not
Speaker:a fucking good dad, you're this, you're that and everything like that
Speaker:and you're shit at your job and why the fuck have you let yourself get to
Speaker:this point and all this sort of stuff. And I
Speaker:was stood looking at the psych team who were running
Speaker:this project. And at the time we had
Speaker:somebody who used to look after the logistics for the tour. She
Speaker:had nothing to do with construction, she had come from an event
Speaker:organisation. Never worked there. And she was sat there like that. And
Speaker:listening to all this abuse. When
Speaker:I turned and looked at the site team as if to say, you're going to control them, I'm going to have to do it.
Speaker:And they were like, they didn't know what to do. They couldn't look at me. And I was like, right.
Speaker:I know it's not my podcast but I'd be really interested to find this out. When
Speaker:people are saying stuff like that to you, Obviously
Speaker:you've then gone in on them or whatever and sort of like discussed how
Speaker:you feel, but for me, like past trauma for me, my
Speaker:dad was a complete waste of space, so that would have really triggered me and I think I
Speaker:probably would have walked out. Obviously with how you've dealt with it,
Speaker:how do you, other than going in on them, do you not get a
Speaker:feeling there of like, oh mate, you know, that doubt of...
Speaker:When I used to run big projects, I used to massively struggle
Speaker:with imposter syndrome. It used to control my life.
Speaker:But with this stuff, I don't know, like, I
Speaker:did BritLane and the project manager side of stuff and it was a job. Whereas
Speaker:this, I feel like I was made to do this. Do you know what I mean? And
Speaker:it is difficult to deal with, but, and I've also got this stubborn mentality that
Speaker:you ain't beating me. And I
Speaker:went in on these lads and went, right, listen, you bunch of pooheads.
Speaker:I'm sure it was a little bit sharp. I said, shit heads. And
Speaker:I said, there's people in this room that need to hear this. If you don't like it, get the
Speaker:fuck out of this room because there's people that need to hear this
Speaker:and we'll get support out of this and we'll get something out of this. If you
Speaker:don't want to listen to this and you want to sit here and disrupt me all the way through this
Speaker:So it turns out one of their team had took their own life
Speaker:three weeks before. Wow. And I was like, right boys.
Speaker:Let's talk about it. And then there was still one that was being consistent
Speaker:and they were like asking me saying, can you do this in Chinese? And I
Speaker:was like, yeah, yeah. Because the charity, the Lighthouse, whatever
Speaker:your first language is, you can have it spoken to you all the
Speaker:way through your journey. So the helpline is spoken in 13 different languages. But
Speaker:if there is a language that they don't do on the helpline, they can get it translated to
Speaker:you. And they were just asking
Speaker:me all sorts of daft questions. But by the end of it they were stood out the front having
Speaker:a picture with me with their arms around me on the vining scene. And two of
Speaker:them actually came up to me and went, I'm really, really sorry about that. It was obviously
Speaker:that was gone on but... No respect though. Yeah. And
Speaker:I think what they wanted to do Joe is like you say, they thought, they
Speaker:got told that there's going to be a talk about mental health and it's going to be somebody that
Speaker:is going to turn up with a tweed jacket on
Speaker:a leather thing and it ain't going to be realised that it's somebody
Speaker:from the industry that has worked in this industry, dealt with
Speaker:people like you for however many years and
Speaker:came out the other side of it. And then like, when we finished, the site team
Speaker:were like, can I have a word with you? I was like, yeah,
Speaker:all right. And they took me down like two corridors and threw into
Speaker:these offices and nobody could hear what we were saying. They were like, oh, I'm really sorry
Speaker:about the site team. And I was going to start saying, well, you need to do this. And
Speaker:because the lads on
Speaker:that site were just dominating that team and
Speaker:they were getting walked all over. But I was like, It happens sometimes. It
Speaker:was dealt with, you've seen the result and now
Speaker:know what the help and support that's out there and it
Speaker:is difficult to deal with that stuff and there is times where I can
Speaker:be really sensitive to stuff but I also
Speaker:know that Again, it comes
Speaker:down to resilience. That resilience that I've built up over the years to put
Speaker:up with that. And I went away and I rang Lei,
Speaker:who's another member of the team, and I was like, oh my God, mate, I've just had to deal
Speaker:with this. And the adrenaline kicks in
Speaker:as well. Yeah, I guess so. You
Speaker:do get it. But again, there's always a reason like that individual in
Speaker:the comments and then those people outside. There's always a
Speaker:reason behind it. And it's deflection more than anything. Yeah.
Speaker:Because like, I suppose in person, like you can probably sense
Speaker:it a lot more than if it was like through social media, like
Speaker:a comment. So how do you deal with that through
Speaker:To be honest, I don't get a lot, I think mainly because mine's more
Speaker:work-driven or more work content than it is mental
Speaker:health content, I don't really get a lot of
Speaker:negative comments. Like, I did a video not so long back with
Speaker:the Home Improvements channel, And that was a different kettle
Speaker:of fish. That was people picking the bones out
Speaker:of everything you do. And that was kind of like, I've not had this before,
Speaker:this is a new experience for me. But to be fair,
Speaker:the lads at Braddonfield had mentioned it to me to say like, you know, just
Speaker:be aware that, you know, I mean we think the video is on like four
Speaker:and a half, five million views now and
Speaker:12,000 likes or whatever. It's nothing to do with mental health. But
Speaker:they were saying like, you know, just be prepared for the barrage of
Speaker:abuse that you're potentially going to get. And then when you start seeing
Speaker:the way that they answer the barrage of abuse, just,
Speaker:you know, smart, sarky, oh, I'm really sorry.
Speaker:And then like one of the comments was something like, I
Speaker:can't believe that project's built out of shit. I
Speaker:can't believe you've done this, this and this. And I was like, built out of what, sorry?
Speaker:We're not in like the 1800s where we're making stuff out of wattle and daub or
Speaker:whatever. And the comment that I put back has got
Speaker:like 189 likes, because the geezers obviously just tried to troll me. But
Speaker:like I say, touch wood, I don't really get many negative
Speaker:comments on what I'm putting out there. I'd like to think
Speaker:that, you know, other than competitors that
Speaker:potentially don't want you to be doing well, I
Speaker:don't really think in the mental health game, if
Speaker:there is such a thing, there's many people that have got the brass neck
Speaker:to call you out and start slagging you off for doing something to try and
Speaker:better people's lives and offer support and, you know, I don't personally
Speaker:No, I mean other than a couple of examples I've given, I don't really get anything like
Speaker:that. But what I do have to do, I have to have strong boundaries with
Speaker:social media and things like that to look after me because it
Speaker:is all-consuming sometimes and I'll be honest with
Speaker:you, when I've been out all week doing talks and other bits
Speaker:of work that I do, come Friday I'm absolutely mental health out and
Speaker:it's the last thing I want to think about and I have to put my own mental health first.
Speaker:And I think it's important that people, when they do start doing work around
Speaker:mental health, they need to realize that they need to look after their mental health
Speaker:before anybody's. And they can say no to people. Definitely agree
Speaker:with that. Because if people are coming and looking for support for you and
Speaker:you're not at the top of your game, you can turn around. So to say like
Speaker:Joe came to me, he was like, Rob, I really need a bit of advice. But I was wiped out
Speaker:on Friday. Joe, dude, I'm really sorry. Can I
Speaker:pick this up on Monday? Yeah, can we pick it up on Monday or maybe speak to this person or
Speaker:maybe go here? I'm absolutely wiped out. Because I
Speaker:do work with a lot of construction companies now where I'll go in and
Speaker:teach them how to speak to human beings basically. And I'll
Speaker:say to them like how to push back in a positive way
Speaker:and to look after yourself and you can say no to people. Or
Speaker:if you have somebody constantly messaging you and constantly leaning
Speaker:on you for support and you feel like it's overwhelming you, You
Speaker:can turn around and say, look, Joe, I've been supporting you for six
Speaker:weeks now and I feel we're still in the same place and we're not getting any further. Maybe
Speaker:I'm not the person to do this for you. Maybe let's look at finding somebody
Speaker:else to do this. Or ultimately you could turn around and say, right,
Speaker:Joe, it's not been working. What do you need from me
Speaker:to help you move forward in a positive way? And it's all these little things I do
Speaker:for myself. I don't, when some,
Speaker:like it'll get to 8, 9 o'clock at night and I'll stop reading messages
Speaker:on social media because I need the downtime. Yeah, yeah. Wish
Speaker:It can be so draining, it's all consuming, it can take over your
Speaker:life, it can become a little bit obsessive as well. I have, and
Speaker:I've got an addictive personality so it's killer for me, honestly. People
Speaker:like, people bang on about algorithms, excuse
Speaker:me, and I know it's a huge part of people's work now,
Speaker:and you do need it, but... you've got
Speaker:to remember and understand that you need these boundaries so you
Speaker:can go back and you can be in a fresh place and you can have a fresh mindset.
Speaker:I used to be really, really guilty of overworking and
Speaker:it leads to burnout. And the thing with burnout is you sometimes
Speaker:don't realize you're in it till it's too late, till you have that
Speaker:explosion or till you have that breakdown or till you have... Like your
Speaker:body will scream at you. Your body will let you
Speaker:know because your physical health and your mental health go hand in hand. And
Speaker:everybody's fine about talking about the physical health, but they often struggle
Speaker:with the mental health side of things. And your body will tell you when your mental
Speaker:health is dropping, when you're in burnout. I get cold sores.
Speaker:And I know when I'm... I don't particularly get
Speaker:ill too much, but when I'm run down, I'm starting to hit
Speaker:burnout, I start getting a cold sore for no reason. Or,
Speaker:like, I was pretty lucky at work because a lot of the lads, their fingers used to split. Even
Speaker:through gloves, the mortar used to, like, attack the hands. I never got
Speaker:it. But if I'm running, getting run down, my fingers will start
Speaker:peeling on the sides. It's just little things like that.
Speaker:Your body, you're picking up colds or coughs or you're waking up and you're feeling
Speaker:groggy or you sound bunged up. Or you might have
Speaker:an ongoing problem with your back. It might be fine for
Speaker:months and all of a sudden you wake up one day and it's killing you. It's
Speaker:your body screaming at you to tell you. That must be why I'm losing my hair. But
Speaker:stress and things like that. I have
Speaker:to be really, really, really strict with boundaries on social media. And
Speaker:sometimes if I do go in and I see it, I won't ever leave somebody on read
Speaker:and not get back to them. I'll give them a message like we spoke about before or
Speaker:if they need further support then I'll signpost them
Speaker:in the right way that I feel is the right support
Speaker:Well, you guys have obviously met so many people.
Speaker:What would you say is the most meaningful interaction
Speaker:I think for me is people who,
Speaker:like I said before about they'll hold on a comment, that's something that I've said
Speaker:and I've not realized that it's had such an impact on that individual. And
Speaker:when people message you saying there was
Speaker:one individual that I got some support and Like I say,
Speaker:I don't know their journey. Once they go on that journey or
Speaker:once they've left chatting to me, they'll go
Speaker:on their individual journey, whatever that looks like. But I've had one person send
Speaker:me a message saying in absolute dire straits how
Speaker:they're feeling suicidal and they feel like they've
Speaker:got absolutely no hope. And then I had the
Speaker:individual message me again saying, I've got my first round of
Speaker:therapy today. I'm really worried or apprehensive about
Speaker:it. But I know it's the right thing. And then they've
Speaker:messaged me three or four sessions
Speaker:later and saying, I can really start to feel the difference. And
Speaker:then they've gone on to message saying, it's my last session today. I feel amazing. Life's
Speaker:good. It's totally and utterly changed my outlook on
Speaker:life. Thank you so much for your help. how you've
Speaker:made such an impact on my life and that's massive for me.
Speaker:Yeah, hugely rewarding. Like I said before, I can
Speaker:write a wicked CV for all the projects I've been part of. I can go around and, boy, you're
Speaker:pointing at all the buildings I've worked on all up and down the country. As
Speaker:we all do. Yeah, up and down. Up and down the country and
Speaker:nothing, nothing gives me job satisfaction like this. It's
Speaker:the hardest job I've ever done. And it's the most emotionally draining.
Speaker:And I can get in that van and I can cry my eyes out sometimes just
Speaker:because of the emotion that goes into it. But
Speaker:then at the same breath, I'm like, it's absolutely worth
Speaker:it. Because every time you go out and do this stuff, you give a little piece
Speaker:of yourself away. But that piece is filling somebody
Speaker:That's a tough one really. Do you know what, so
Speaker:I just kind of, again like I say, mine's probably a
Speaker:little bit more subtle because it's not what I fully promote
Speaker:as such on my page, but we organise a charity golf day. earlier
Speaker:on this year and we're going to do another one next
Speaker:year. And it wasn't the aim
Speaker:of it all, it was obviously all to do with mental health in construction. That's
Speaker:what we were raising the money for. But it was more kind
Speaker:of just, I think everybody needs a bit of a day out off the tools and
Speaker:have a chit-chat and a bit of a knees up for those that
Speaker:drink. And without
Speaker:knowing, I think people started to open up on
Speaker:the course, whether that was to me or whether that was to someone else in
Speaker:the football that they were with. And the conversations that
Speaker:I had post the event were phenomenal. I
Speaker:was out with another three in my team, and
Speaker:a lad, I won't mention his name, but a lad had opened up
Speaker:to me about his struggles, basically. He
Speaker:was just like, you know, I've spoken about it before, but it's really good to speak to someone
Speaker:who's like-minded and get this off my chest a bit more. So
Speaker:without knowing, I suppose, and then the
Speaker:girl who provides my uniform, I'll give her a shameless plug, branded
Speaker:by Sammy. She really struggles with
Speaker:social anxiety. So much so, she rang me
Speaker:on the way down to the event from home saying, I
Speaker:forgot my business cards. I'm gonna have to go back and get them. Basically saying,
Speaker:I'm not gonna make it. And I basically sent her a voice message and
Speaker:said, no, you're coming. You don't need your business cards. You're
Speaker:there. You're promoting yourself. We're wearing all of
Speaker:the gear that you've provided for the day. You don't need them,
Speaker:just get your arse here, basically. Kick through the arse. And
Speaker:at the end of the day, much to her dismay,
Speaker:I think, I did ask her beforehand, I didn't want to put her on the spot, but I said, do you mind
Speaker:me just sort of telling people about how you've overcome what you know, your
Speaker:biggest fear today? And she said it
Speaker:literally just changed her outcome on, sort
Speaker:of outlook, sorry, on the whole scenario really. She
Speaker:said she pushed herself out of her comfort zone, wouldn't have done so normally. Just
Speaker:little things like that, you know, like you're saying, where you wouldn't necessarily look
Speaker:for that reward, but it's so rewarding to feel like
Speaker:you're giving back to someone. from when you've experienced
Speaker:that journey of being in a really dark, horrible place, whether that's anxiety, depression
Speaker:or whatever it might be, to be able to give something back I think is
Speaker:the biggest reward for anyone. Take the followers and
Speaker:the platform and everything else out of it. It fills me with
Speaker:I mean, I suppose no matter how big or small it is, it
Speaker:Yeah, I think, you know, when you're in that mindset, I think to
Speaker:find someone who's relatable and
Speaker:understands what you're going through, I think that makes a big difference then
Speaker:to be able to sort of open up. And I think this
Speaker:is where what you're doing is absolutely incredible. You
Speaker:know, like you touched on earlier, they don't want to see a guy who
Speaker:knows loads about mental health, but has never been in construction, or
Speaker:on the other hand, knows loads about construction, but not much about mental
Speaker:health. I think when you can come sort of like with the whole package of,
Speaker:lads I've been here, I've laid bricks, I've been on site, I know the crack, I
Speaker:know it's not okay to be okay, and all that kind of jazz, the cliches that
Speaker:go with it. when you've walked the walk, then you can
Speaker:talk the talk. I think that's huge. Like if someone was
Speaker:to approach me in that manner, I'm more likely to listen to them than
Speaker:I am to someone like you said earlier, wearing a tweed suit going, now
Speaker:this is what we do if you're struggling and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's just so,
Speaker:You know, we're all lads, lads, lads. Yeah, definitely. There's
Speaker:been times where I stopped one talk because they're like, you're
Speaker:not a bricklayer. I went, right. I went out and laid 200 bricks. I went out
Speaker:and laid 200 bricks with him on a garage and went, right, who's getting paid for this? Me, not you.
Speaker:Come on, boys. I'll have this money. Were they level? No, were they?
Speaker:Brilliant. And
Speaker:I think that's massively, especially in this game. Do
Speaker:you know what I mean? It might be like in a big corporate event, everyone's going
Speaker:to walk in there in a suit and tie. It's different, isn't it? But in this game, You
Speaker:know, you want to know someone's been on site and faced
Speaker:the struggles that you've faced. I think that's huge hats off to you, mate, for being
Speaker:What's been like the biggest challenges, like
Speaker:the biggest challenge in both of your careers so far with mental
Speaker:I think for me it's changing the
Speaker:people's opinion of it and people's understanding of
Speaker:what it is and how it's very individual for
Speaker:everybody and it doesn't look the same. And you might go
Speaker:and do a course and you read the scientific version of
Speaker:it but that might not be the same version for them out on
Speaker:site. So it's difficult breaking that barrier down sometimes with
Speaker:people that They're like, no, I'm not interested. I don't get that. I
Speaker:don't have any of that. I'm all right. I can keep going. But
Speaker:then when they do come and listen, they're like, maybe I do have this. And
Speaker:maybe I do need to... I'd never realized I was like that. And
Speaker:sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees. So I think people's
Speaker:opinion around the subject is very, very, very difficult to break down
Speaker:I think the biggest challenge for me from an outsider looking, I
Speaker:don't do a lot of site work, I do more sort of domestic than I
Speaker:do commercial, but the few sites that I've been to
Speaker:is the awareness on site of mental health
Speaker:or poor mental health, should I say. You see
Speaker:so many signs, I mean, it's interesting you saying about a poster earlier, I've
Speaker:never been, like I said, I don't do a lot of site work, but I've never been on site and
Speaker:seen anything about mental health. Like,
Speaker:you know, I know they see, There's
Speaker:signs that say no accidents on site and all that kind of stuff and I've
Speaker:been in a field like paperwork, like literally a log book like
Speaker:that, working with gypsum, working from heights, working with this, working
Speaker:with that. not one question on there
Speaker:anywhere, how's your mental health or have
Speaker:you suffered with anxiety in the last so many months? Have you
Speaker:suffered with depression? For me that's the biggest challenge
Speaker:that I would really like to see grow in construction is
Speaker:let's just get a bit of awareness out there of this
Speaker:is real, do you know what I mean? I mean I forget
Speaker:the stats, you probably know a lot better than me. But
Speaker:how many people commit suicide in
Speaker:construction and how, you know, potentially, I'm
Speaker:not saying it can be solved because if it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right?
Speaker:But I think if there was more awareness on building sites of
Speaker:signposting, not necessarily from people like you, not
Speaker:even inconspicuous, a sign that sort of says, you know, and when you're signing those
Speaker:bits of paperwork, no one looks over your shoulder when you're signing
Speaker:this paperwork. Nine times out of ten, let's be honest, we flick through it and sign it
Speaker:and give it a quick squiggle. I think if there was something in there that
Speaker:maybe just give you a little kick up the bum to make you think about
Speaker:it, that would be my biggest challenge and struggle for the construction
Speaker:industry would be where I would want to make changes if I
Speaker:Yeah, definitely. And I think people's attitudes are definitely changing. Like five years ago,
Speaker:six years ago, when I first started thinking about this
Speaker:work and doing this work, people's attitudes were totally different to what they
Speaker:are now. And I think companies are starting to
Speaker:realize this and understand that we might not be causing these issues
Speaker:and it might be something that's outside work but we're certainly not
Speaker:helping it. And like you can put it back to like when I first started on
Speaker:site, you'd work, you'd go out on site, people would
Speaker:be smoking on site, you'd go in the canteens, it'd be horrible, there'd be pastry stuff
Speaker:everywhere and people's attitudes were totally different. Whereas the industry
Speaker:like, right, we need to change a little bit with this. We need to bring us up to speed
Speaker:a bit and be a bit more professional. And now you look around and certainly like the
Speaker:work that I used to do, the canteens are up to spec and you have decent
Speaker:food on there now. And it's not just bacon, egg and sausage that you can eat.
Speaker:You can get healthy meals along the way. And people are looking after
Speaker:themselves a lot more. And I feel we're at that point now with
Speaker:the mental health and well-being within the industry The industry is
Speaker:on that tilting point that we're realizing we need to make these
Speaker:changes and we do need to have the impact. Because we get the physical health
Speaker:right or we get it right to a big degree. And I know people can
Speaker:have an opinion about health and safety, but it's ultimately there to
Speaker:get them home safe to the families. And the last lot
Speaker:of figures we can relate the two to is from
Speaker:the Office of National Statistics from 2021. And they were saying
Speaker:that the biggest killer within our industry was
Speaker:falls from heights. And that year we lost 17 people.
Speaker:That's the biggest killer which is devastating. 17 families were devastated.
Speaker:In that same year there was 507 construction workers that took their
Speaker:own life. So when you break
Speaker:that down it's two every working day. So Monday to Friday we're losing
Speaker:10 people. And it's huge
Speaker:numbers. And it's very, very, very difficult to bring these figures together because
Speaker:it may be happening on site, it may not be happening on site. And
Speaker:a lot of people tend to hide suicide in
Speaker:different ways. And it's
Speaker:not the mental ill health that is killing all these people in this industry. It's
Speaker:the stigma that surrounds the subject. Stigma
Speaker:affected me differently. Stigma stopped me reaching out and asking for help.
Speaker:I never got suicidal, never entered my head. And again, I think I'm
Speaker:too stubborn. But it doesn't mean my problems
Speaker:are any less than somebody who is having intrusive thoughts.
Speaker:And it doesn't mean their problems are any more than mine just because I wasn't having those
Speaker:intrusive thoughts. We're all
Speaker:individuals. We all have individual wants and needs. The
Speaker:Well what's one myth that you want people to stop believing
Speaker:If you feel somebody's suicidal you can't talk to them about it.
Speaker:Yeah, and it's totally not true. People are scared, and I get it,
Speaker:people are scared that if I ask them this they're going to send them over the edge
Speaker:and they're going to do what they're going to do. If they're going to do it,
Speaker:that idea was already there. You're not going to put that idea there. So
Speaker:I think the important thing is to people, and I've done this several times, I'm
Speaker:It's a huge question, yeah, but it's a powerful question at the same time.
Speaker:And you've also got to remember you don't have to have the answers for them. You don't
Speaker:have to give them that answer. And I think People
Speaker:that I speak to that have been suicidal, they've
Speaker:said that if somebody had asked me I probably would have honestly said
Speaker:yes to it. And they would have been just as scared because
Speaker:they understand the consequences of their actions. But
Speaker:at the same time they thought they were alone and nobody was hearing them. So
Speaker:I think the biggest myth I think for me is definitely people
Speaker:need to start asking that hard, hard question. And it's not going to be easy
Speaker:and you're going to be shaking as you answer it because you're scared of what's going to come back at you. But
Speaker:remember there's people out there that can help and support not only you but that individual through
Speaker:It's going to be scary for that person to ask the question as well,
Speaker:especially if it's someone so close because they might not want to know the answer.
Speaker:But for me I think the way I think about it is that I'd rather have a
Speaker:difficult conversation and ask that difficult question than
Speaker:For me I guess it's just, again it's a bit cliche, but just
Speaker:to make people understand that I think the myth is that it's
Speaker:better to bottle it up than it is to talk about it. I think, you know, we've all
Speaker:experienced times haven't we where we've not wanted to talk about something
Speaker:that's a challenge, whether that's in a relationship or a job, you know, it
Speaker:could be something as simple as a pay rise, you know, I feel like I'm working harder
Speaker:and stuff. Just to approach that differently I
Speaker:think is a complete myth that if you
Speaker:don't talk it's going to get better. Complete myth. You've obviously
Speaker:said as soon as you opened up your life changed dramatically. Exactly the
Speaker:same for me. I was in massive just denial that
Speaker:anything was wrong with me and that I was an addict and that I had issues
Speaker:and stuff. And as soon as I actually confronted
Speaker:it head on and said, you know what, I think I've got a problem here and started talking
Speaker:I think you even mentioned one earlier about like mental
Speaker:No, no, no, definitely not. It's a sign of strength that you
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. So what's
Speaker:one piece of advice that you'd give someone that is hesitant
Speaker:I'd just say it makes it better. It really
Speaker:does. And again, I know I keep going on about these cliches. From
Speaker:personal experience, as I've just said, I think
Speaker:when you open up, the big thing for me was when
Speaker:I opened up was that I started getting answers
Speaker:maybe I didn't want to hear but actually made me understand where
Speaker:I was at that time. And I think when you start opening
Speaker:up and people start asking you questions, I'm sure you ask people questions that
Speaker:aren't necessarily what they think is wrong with them. I
Speaker:mean I've done therapy, I've done lots of different types of therapy. Some
Speaker:of which have helped and some of which haven't. But when they start asking you questions... For
Speaker:me, my big thing was past trauma of my dad not being around
Speaker:when I was growing up very often. And I was like, that's
Speaker:got nothing to do with me being an alcoholic. But it had. Because
Speaker:that was my coping mechanism to deal with the situation that I hadn't
Speaker:dealt with. And I think then I was just passing the book or, you
Speaker:know, the relay baton just to another issue. I think, you
Speaker:know, from that perspective, I think just talking about it is... it
Speaker:makes a huge difference because I think you start to understand things that you potentially wouldn't
Speaker:understand when you don't start answering questions. You don't always realize it.
Speaker:No, no, no. I think for me it's to
Speaker:let people know that it does get better. I promise you it gets better no
Speaker:matter how deep or how dark the problem is. that no
Speaker:matter what you've done to get to that point and you might think I can never get
Speaker:myself out of this or I've done X, Y and Z and I've destroyed all these
Speaker:relationships and I've done this and I've done that, I promise you it does
Speaker:get better and you can work those solutions out. You may lose friends
Speaker:over it and family members and that side of
Speaker:it but you can get yourself out of those problems. You don't have to do it
Speaker:on your own, you're not the only one going through it and your story is
Speaker:Well thank you so much guys for sharing
Speaker:both of your stories today. I kind of
Speaker:want to finish the podcast on a bit of a lighter note. So
Speaker:Mine's clean-ish. So, a guy goes
Speaker:for a job interview. Job interview goes well. And
Speaker:the interviewer says to him, right, I'm really pleased with that interview, I think
Speaker:I'm going to offer you the job, but you've got to put fascinate
Speaker:into a sentence. So the guy sat there thinking about it for a
Speaker:minute, fascinate, he goes, I know. He goes, I've got
Speaker:a donkey jacket, I think it's great, it's got nine buttons but I can only fascinate. Brilliant.
Speaker:You need to listen to that one so I can remember it, because I will not remember that. You'll have
Speaker:Mine would be, what bees deliver milk? Boobies.
Speaker:My seven year old came out with that one at the dinner table the other night and I was absolutely
Speaker:Do you want to get that one written down as
